zephyraz
19 messages normal
2.2 Pratiques interdites Sont strictement interdits :
l'utilisation de Continues (reprendre un niveau en cours après un Game Over) si ceux-ci ne font pas baisser votre score ;
🤯
Don't worry, I'm fine with this, but I'm not sure another long debate is necessary there.
Well, I will make explanations again…
I think we need to have another discussion about this, because you just forgot (or didn't answer) to what I wrote more than 3 months ago, concerning Neo Geo Arcade Stick Pro:
Important:
Neo Geo Mini have internal savestates,
Neo Geo Arcade Stick Pro has Turbo button, and limited credits (like in arcade games, so different to the original Neo Geo games),
Neo Geo Arcade Stick Pro Christmas Edition has Turbo button, and maybe also limited credits (I will check this soon).
That's why we can't group these games with original ones.
And we can't group common games in Mini and Arcade Stick, which are 2 different new systems.
You can proove by pictures you played it, but then it better requires additional platform proofs, (still in developpement).
Neo Geo Mini and Arcade Stick pro have no specific background.
So video proofs are strongly suggested, but it is now really more important for the original games.
When these games will be released in VGR, then we need to change Specific Rules for original games (only concerned games which also exist for these new systems, of course), make video proofs obligation, and platform proof strongly suggested.
I know that you can't use unlimited continues, in general.
But this system change this by giving you opportunity to use, and I think you can't avoid what is considered as in-game tools or options, wanted/made by developers/brands.
Sorry if i didn't had the time to put all the Specific Rules before, or mentioned it.
For me, it was not necessary to add this restriction, because it's done and produced with…
Now, here you and I know that there is unlimited continues and savestates, integrated in the system.
It means, it is what developers wanted when they produced and sold it, and we just said this week that VGR needs to follow developpers choices, first.
Do we need to change each day our opinions ?
In this specific case, I'm the adder of the system, and nobody mention to not used its options and tools before (since 3 months it was in the New games topic, or since more than 1 year in fact).
Fine, it's like that…
But you probably don't know other details, because I suppose you didn't bought it and check this for different versions. And… same for me, because I don't own some Neo Geo original games, I recognize.
I will tell you what I found.
What I can compare is some fighting games, like Samurai Shodown or others.
In Neo Geo Arcade Stick Pro (let's write "ASP"), you start with 0 credit, and the difficulty is fixed at level 4, I suppose it is equal to the normal difficulty.
In other games (I own), the difficulty is variable from 1 to 10 level.
In ASP, like it was probably wanted for arcade machines, the difficulty is set-up to make you play around 5-15 min maximum.
It means, in Metal Slug example, that you need dozen of credits to finish the game like I done.
I obtained a score around 500 000 pts. So when I see the original leaderboard, then I think there's a problem with 2 people with more than 2 millions. I will contact them for help, they maybe found glitches again, or simply know better the game than me…
Also, in Metal Slug Anthology, I also found strange things, with mexican guy gushum.
Check this proof, you will find other “ZIM” crazy scores…
So I suppose the versions settings are different, that's why I think it's better to accept all options like wanted by developpers, rather to put restrictive and non-tolerant rules like this.
This is my opinion as a player and as the main adder of this system, but not as an Admin.
Now, as an Admin, we should study this with care, and know what are the consequences.
As an Admin, I can recognize than we can let the General Rules of “No continues” allowed.
But then, it's another problem, because you encourage (or force, because it's a rule) people to use savestates, almost all 10 seconds in these games… Same with mini system, and really worse with SNES Mini who is made and produced, sold and released with savestates…and rewinds.
So, finally, what is the worst here ?😒
We discussed about this in different Councils:
It was decided that it was better to accept these systems with its tools, because:
1) we will also develop Platform Proofs in the same time (or almost: it should arrive, soon…), so mostly for “old” systems, to ensure it was not done with modern tools. It will lead to video proofs, if reasonable and possible.
2) it is really important to make differences between these systems and original games.
Djon, you know how the debate is important, you also own the SNES Mini system.
So, finally, by refusing the internal tools inside the system, I wonder if you understand and realize it can also put in danger all the old games that are now released in these system…🤨
So it can also affects VGR rankings, and finally … VGR utility !
Did you think about all these parameters before ?
Whatever you prefer, and whatever my player opinion is, the 4 other Council members already known and said that it was important to accept these system like they were sold, even with these tools (unlimited continues, savestates, rewinds). It was decided in march-april 2020.
So, in all new Mini-systems, should we specify in Specific Rules all allowed tools details, or simply consider that they are basically accepted, and not mention them ?
In my opinion, Specific Rules are restrictive things, so nothing should be especially written when there is no restriction.
But with this long debate and particular ambiguous situation, maybe it's better, what do you think ?
Like I proposed since 2013, we could rename this as “Rules and infos”, no ?
In this topic, we need the Council explanations, clearly.
Have a nice week-end…
If new Rules overtake General Rules then need to be written in Specific Rules before put the game in Production online ln VGR.
If no Specific Rules are written the General one must be apply
By the way for instance in Metal Slug Anthology you can use and setup your credits to play in the same way as you did here. No reason to make 2 differents positions for basically the same feature.
We need rules to have a fair competition. And everyone needs to follow the same rules. If some wants to play without glitches and some wants to play with glitches, then they are not playing with the same rules and competition will not be fair. Pretty simple.
Council is discussing and deciding things, but it would be also important to ask how the members of VGR wants to compete. If I as a member of the site can't accept the rules council decides, then I guess I'm at the wrong site.
"VGR needs to follow developers choises"
Often the choises made by developers are not made for highscore competition in mind. Such as the rewind feature on the emulator that runs these mini console games or the Sega Genesis Classic games on PC and consoles. The rewind feature is made to help new players enjoy the old games and make it easier for them to progress by allowing rewind.
To me, allowing rewind or savestates for highscore competition is insane.
Damn, Neo Geo Arcade Stick Pro and mini-systems sounds no fun at all. Keep in mind than those new systems are created to make easy money off someone's nostalgia. I greatly doubt anything goes to the original developpers (the whole team, not just the programmers) or their heirs.
Remember players; no struggle, no fun.
I am totally against using Continues. And with Capcom and Neo Geo games, players using continues are easily detected by the last figure. If it is not a zero, then you used xx continues.
Continues were used by the developers to practise your game and see later levels. For a high score run, this should not be countable.
I am surprised by the decision this can be allowed…
Even when your continue resets your score, it shouldn't be allowed. Giving an example of some old retro game : 1942. If you use it and win the final boss, you get 10.000.000 points. You can never beat that score during regular playing. And I am pretty sure there are tons of other games where a final battle boss gives you masses of points.
500K on Metal SLug is easy done. Even with completing a (near) perfect run on Stage 1, you can have 1M (or was it 100K?!). Just need to trigger the hidden prisoners. And make it save 100% till the end without dying.
I totally agree with GTi here about continues. And this rule has been on the site rules since I joined here over a decade ago. So without specific rules, general rule should apply.
That mexican guy gushum, who zephyraz mentioned, I believe is a friend of zimer (or fake account), ZIM on his proof pic with amazing score is Zimer.
I think glitch must be prohibited as start PS4 - Xbox360, because you can purchase on Virtual Store every game, but if you use a glitch to make a score and the Dev' fix it with a patch you can't downgrade your game ! So score undefeated…
On playstation, every game on Store must be upgrade to the last version if you want play with it. It's impossible to remove a patch without hack your system ;)
So the problem it's only with old gen, many as glitch so… i don't know, i would say it's ok. We can't change the rules every day i think.
I agree with no continues used of course.
Prohibiting continues is a rule coming from old generations of games and the rule must be followed for them.
But for platforms such as “mini” consoles that went out last past months and years, functionnalities like continues and saves are in the game by design. So there is no reason to not accept them on these platforms.
For competition, it is better to add those kind of platform and allow continues/saves/etc on them specifically, so people who buy them can submit their scores on this specific platform.
If we don't do that, we would just get more people posting scores on original platform with high risks that they submit scores made using saves or continues anyway.
On the other hand, the video games market is evolving so we need to adpat our rules depending on that. If we don't adapt, VGR will slowly die. This is as simple as that.
Interesting…
So why you apply this rules on this game here ?
If it's allowed, Mini System video proof… You must separate Mini System or not ? Zephyraz apply the rules for Specific Game here but it not concerned… So why other members ? you are only contradicting yourself…
I am against mandatory video evidence, this is the one and only reason that I do not publish my scores on speedrun.com so I'm confused... You can use it if the system include this so Photo proof is not a problem. " Please help me "
Not sure to understand, the rule described on the link is exactly what I said: continues/saves authorized on Mini versions of platform.
Though, I find this rule poorly written and it should be better formulated I think.
I am only asking for an explanation. So image proof is good? but the problem is that surely players will be posted on the original and that is forbidden (I agree with that)! VGR police activated ^^
I can proof video only as start on PS4 because, they are system include in a console “replay”. So if video is mandory, i don't post on a game, this is as simple as that. So it's a reason to have en explanation ;)
I am only asking for an explanation. So image proof is good? but the problem is that surely players will be posted on the original and that is forbidden (I agree with that)! VGR police activated ^^
We will never be able to totally avoid people to post on the original game so there is always a risk.
But by authorizing saves/continues on “Mini" platform, we aim to avoid that as much as possible. If people can post their scores on dedicated Mini platform, there is less risk that they post on the original game in the end. This is one of the goals of separating both platforms and rules that apply to the different version.
I quickly understand when I am explained for a long time, VGR has changed a lot in 15 years…
As usual I don't want problem and prefer to inquire ;) because i got Mini System so i understand better. A video rules is suggered only for the original game. That's right ?
English with google trad
It is clear that without specific rule, the general rule applies.
There was no need to make a cheat topic for that, just a reminder of the basic rules.
For records, groups and games where photo proof is not enough, only video proof is accepted, it is expected, there will be an icon next to the record to announce it. So if a request for proof is received, then it will be necessary to provide video proof, the sending of photos will be disabled.
But as always the proofs are not obligatory as long as there is not a validated request
For me the best method was to refuse rewinds and saves at a precise moment as currently with continuous ones.
and only full video evidence could tell us if any tools were used. Now that youtube has returned to VGR it was possible to prove the full records.
The council chose to accept the tools and to separate the original version but for the continuous ones nothing was decided.
Français
Il est clair que sans regle spécifique, les regle general s'applique.
Il n'y avait pas besoin de faire un topic de triche pour ça, juste faire un rapel des regles de base.
Pour les records, groupes et jeux ou la preuve photo ne suffit pas, seul la preuve vidéo est accepté, c'est prévu, il y aura une icône a coté du record pour l'annoncer. Donc si une demande de preuve est reçu, alors il faudra forcement fournir une preuve vidéo, l'envoie de photo sera désactivé.
Mais comme a chaque fois les preuves ne sont pas obligatoire tant qu'il y a pas une demande validé
Pour moi la meilleur méthode était de refusé les rembobinages et les sauvegardes à un instant précis comme actuellement avec les continus.
et seul les preuves vidéo complète pouvait nous dire si des outils avaient été utilisés. Maintenant que youtube à fait son retour sur VGR c’était possible de prouvé le records complet.
Le conseil a choisi d'accepter les outils et de séparer les version original mais pour les continus rien n'a était décidé
yes okay, the proofs are not necessary but I'm paying the price now... I have lost almost everything and have to do almost everything again so that I can stop being told that I am a big suspect or cheater.
I really do what I can and it's going to take time, a lot of time... It wasn't as easy to prove the scores 15 years ago and that's what few people understand. Pictures one by one, convert to Jpg. At the time I only justified the requests and look where it led me... 16000 scores deleted from the site, and 120 black square and I am considered cheater until proven otherwise while I did nothing...
My departure announcement just rained down requests on my scores, because people knew I wouldn't prove it anymore. If a video proof is request i prefer know that before. If I don't want to make a video because I don't have the hardware, I'd rather not post on the game at all than pass for a cheater and that's my right. For me the videos it will only be on Playstation because I have reasons that I can explain…
We are moving away from the subject, but I understand better, thank you for his clarifications ^^
Yes, Triple HHH, you are moving away from the subject, please add your comments on your personal case in your Presentation topic, or in Discussions;
Concerning the problem of Continues allowed or not ? in Neo Geo Arcade Stick Pro, I will report some comments I made in Discord, to clarify again things:
I own Neo Geo Arcade Stick Pro (Christmas Edition).
For Metal Slug, if you play with only 1 Continue, you have 3 lives.
The difficulty is set with Level-4, present in the center bottom of the screen.
When you loose 3 times, you go to Continue ? screen.
If you choose to continue, your score is increased by 1 point.
So you don't have to continue, if you don't want.
But the game difficulty, the "arcade style" push you to use.
Also, you can very easily add 1 continue by just pressing the Select button...
There is 2 Select buttons: one on the right side of the stick, and one directly on the additional Neo Geo pad.
😉Look at this with YouTube video (english, with french subtitles)
It well explains that the Arcade Stick Pro was designed like Arcade style (MVS), with easy adds of unlimited credits.
And that's different to the original Neo Geo games (AES).
Look especially around 10min00, how it is easy to add credits with the Select button on the pad…
So, very restrictive VGR Rule, if VGR are opposed to the Neo Geo company and what they decided to built and produce.
A too restrictive site can lead to our death, because only minority of people will accept to play with too restrictive things.
Remember when we tried to oblige proofs for 1st places, it was counter-productive, finally...
But the good point in this game is that you can know if you used continues with the final score.
It's also the case in other games.
And in some games, after game over and continue, the score is reset. No reset score in Métal Slug series.
Difficult case for VGR, I agree.🤨
Well, I just saw a new YouTube video, concerning Arcade Stick Pro (but important, not Christmas Edition I own) where it shows a different version of games, and in particular Metal Slug ! 😕 Source of confusion…
In this new video, it seems it's like the AES version, because the Metal Slug game starts with a Menu screen, with 4 credits at the beginning, written right and left for Player 1 and Player 2.
Moreover, there is here Options where you can select difficulty and number of Hero/lives !
So it looks like original game, no ?
I don't have access to that in my Christmas Edition !!! 😵
I think we need to specify “Christmas Edition”, for actual VGR added games, then… 😒
For allowing unlimited continues or not, you can add new comments.