Aprooving of First Place Platin Medal scores

Because of what HyperSonic7701 and Undead have said, I Don't know which is better. I was originally Completely for the Requirement to Prove 1st Place Scores, but HyperSonic7701 does give Strong Points as to why this system would be a bad thing for the Site. I can back him up, because I used to Not be able to prove my scores because I could not find a way to Upload Proof. My Old Laptop's SD Reader did not work so I could not upload from an SD card, and I did not have the Cables for the cameras I had. This is one example of how it can be hard for some players to prove.
My Cameras:
My DSi
My Brother's DSi
My Mom's Camera.
Cellphones
All these could be used to Take a Good Picture, but Without a Way to upload them, Why does it matter that I have a Picture? So I Understand HyperSonic7701 when he Gives his reasons for why people don't prove sometimes.
I can prove now because I have saved up to buy things like a SD Card Reader and I now have Wireless Internet to Upload Picture to Facebook, then to VGR. (I used to just have a Wire connected to my Old Laptop.) I Have so Many Other Example Situations that I can give you, but DO you really need to hear them all? The Example I have given is good enough. So I Guess I am Now for Not changing the Site. Your Still Not Convinced? I Could give you more reasons. Just Ask, and you shall receive.

Edit: @ Undead, I also Played many games when I was very young (5-10) on SNES but I don't post for those because of what you said. I Can't Trust that my Memory is Correct and Post a Score from a Long Time ago. So Yes, I Will Post Scores that I actually have Proof of in front of me (Like saved on the Game or I made just now). Super Mario World Was My Favorite Game and I Probably could be one of the Top Players for that game, but Since I don't have it and Haven't Played it for years, I won't post for it. So I Agree with you on that.

Actually, I Have a Good Example for you... on Instinct Drill in the Game Mario Tennis Power Tour, around 2009, I Made 16.xx Seconds and I am VERY Sure of it. I Remember It Clearly because I laughed that No one of my friends could get even close to that score. I Didn't know about this Site and I never thought to take a Picture. One Day, a \"Friend\" asked to borrow it. He Never Gave it back and I barely ever saw him again... I then Bought a New MTPT and I tried to Repeat that Score, And I couldn't even get close to it. Knowing I had no way to prove it, I edited my score from 17 seconds (Rounded Score From My Memory) to the Score I can actually prove, 28 Seconds... I Know I made 16.xx (or 17 if Rounded) but I have No Proof. How Do You Like That? You Get To Keep the Platinum.

so you will say me you cant get a easy USB cable adapter for you camera? sry, but that is the cheapest part to get.

and if you want to know: i dont use any program for my picture. I just put teh cable on my camera and my PC, the data pops up, i put it to my other pictures and make it smaller with Paint. Thats all.

Then you just need to click on your picture if you upload it direct to the site. I dont think this is to hard to make, and im a PC noob.

edit: im sure my Instict Drill time is not the best because the Game is memory based, so you can have luck to choose the right cards before you know its right.

Undead :

so you will say me you cant get a easy USB cable adapter for you camera? sry, but that is the cheapest part to get.

and if you want to know: i dont use any program for my picture. I just put teh cable on my camera and my PC, the data pops up, i put it to my other pictures and make it smaller with Paint. Thats all.

Then you just need to click on your picture if you upload it direct to the site. I dont think this is to hard to make, and im a PC noob.

Agreed, there are a million ways to prove records and it's all very simple

If it was for first place when there is at least 10 score, it would be ok.
I don't want to take picture of every score where I tried only one time and there is only one other player who didn't try more than me. But for big game of more than 10 players that would be good.
To avoid losing all info on previous player it could be upon posting a new score on chart where there is more than 10 players and the system of proof asking would take care of the older score.

This is mainly directed at Undead's post right after mine (too long, so I won't quote it).

I do think even Djon's idea is bad only in respect to the Medal Table as it stands. This system will -completely- alter the table as we see it at the moment.

Undead, there is a difference between posting a score that is within a legitimate range of a specific chart and one that is flat out impossible. Yes, right now you can submit anything in theory, but in reality, only so far is legit. Besides, that is -exactly- why we have a report system. If one has a reasonable doubt that a top score is not legit, you report it.

I am certainly not saying that proving a top score isn't necessary at times, or good, but the end game here is that we rely on a certain level of trust with the players. If you want a \"no proof = never happen\" system, that's Twin Galaxies for ya. If we started requiring proof for any amount of scores, I guarantee people will leave the site and there will be less competition. Now tell me, is it really better to have a proven 1st across the site at the cost of potential new competition? (cheaters aside here)

While I agree with you that it is loleasy to just get a camera nowadays, it still takes time. I know each record might take 5 minutes, but let's say this system got implemented. A player has, let's say, 300 first places. Some of the records might be old. The save file might have been corrupt, deleted, etc. Maybe some of those records required video proof and video proof alone. Finding and taking all of these proofs can take hours or days, depending on the situation. Maybe not all of them can be proven by said player. Sure, maybe the player didn't really do these records, that's a possibility, but how do you know that? Were you there? Is it really fair to just remove hard earned scores because they did it years ago and can't prove them now?

Also, not all 1st places take weeks to achieve on this site. Tied golds certainly don't. 1st places with a few people on the chart are considered plats as well, and they may not take weeks to achieve the top score. With charts that have 10 or more people, it also becomes obvious what is possible and what is not simply based on the rest of the submissions. Even if this is not so, if a person has a 1st place record that is somewhat higher than the next on a chart with a significant number of people, either you prove it or you likely will get asked to prove it.

Lastly, Undead, there is also a difference between forcing proof offhand and being asked for proof in regard to your Cyberscore history. While I may not have been around when you were questioned and banned as you say, you were likely banned because you did not supply proof in a sufficient time period. I generally trust the Cyberscore team that it has done its part.

Undead :

i have also some good old scores of games i played the time i was 7-10 years old (now im 24)
you realy want that i post this scores without a proof and if ppl ask for a proof i dont must proof it because i cant? I hope you see what i mean. Its just this that maybe some scores are made, but they never exist anymore.

There is also a difference between knowing you can't prove a score -before- you submit and -after- you submit (example: save file corrupts some time later). If you post these records, that is at your own risk. If you get questioned, too bad, they're gone. I'm sure your 7-10 year old self probably did these records, but I'm also sure your 7-10 year old self never even thought about preserving the system and/or game because you would need proof of said record.

Essentially, the current mentality of this site (and Cyberscore as well) is \"You can submit your scores and submit as much as you want, and we will believe your scores to be true unless they are questioned\". If you want to turn this system into \"You can post your records, but if you have 1st places, either prove them or they didn't happen\", you might as well go all the way, right? It means people won't care as much about the rest of their scores, because, meh, I don't have to prove those. That also can lead to other problems. Whatever benefit this new system may have will not outweigh the potential costs. Sure, you can have all proven 1st places, but at what cost? How many people will leave? How many users' records will just be deactivated or removed because they aren't around? How many people will fake proof? How many people will fake their other scores because they might think proof won't be asked for?

Don't take me the wrong way, I am the top prover at Cyberscore, and I have experienced being banned (not from CS though, this was on The Sonic Center) because of fake subs that can't be proven. It taught me a lesson to prove my scores, first or last, on a personal level. As a whole though, we entrust the players to be honest about their submissions. We have rules that certain things are not allowed. We expect the players to fully understand the rules and comply to them. We also expect players to be prepared to prove submissions if they are questioned (wasn't this listed in some text you had to read and accept when you signed up here? I seem to remember that, could be wrong though). If they aren't and can't, action gets taken. The only way a site can truly be certain that all of their scores are legit is by proving all of their submissions. However, it also will mean that there will be hardly any submissions on the site, because not everyone can or will prove their submissions. You have to respect the fact that people do have lives outside of gaming, and that people can be really busy at times. Forcing proof can create an unnecessary stress of \"I gotta get this proof up or my score won't be accepted\".

In the end, I am convinced this system of forcing, or even semi-forcing players to prove their stats just won't work, simply because it will come at a bigger cost, and I have not been convinced otherwise.

In fact, perhaps being encouraged to prove your scores could be much better. I could be wrong, but am I correct in saying that proving scores give you some PointsVGR? If so, I think perhaps it should be made public the amount of PointsVGR given for proving a score. Perhaps VGR could give an added bonus for proving a 1st place score (and more for an untied?). I have seen that PointsVGR can be redeemed for prizes in the future, so I figure if the prizes are attractive enough, people will be encouraged to prove their scores (and being as active as they can be on VGR as well). Just a thought that might seem less radical than changing the system as we know it.

EDIT: I read the rest of the posts more carefully, and I would like to thank Dark Eon Master for the support

I was kinda upset at first on how quick you are to Judge, Undead and thelegendarypsr... but I can understand that you might not know how hard it can be for others. See, not everyone can get what they want, when they want it. In My Case, My Parents are VERY Busy... Never have time to take me to go get things from the store... I have Many responsibilities at home that prevent me from going to get things on my own and Don't really have Reliable friends to get things for me. I have a lot that Stresses me out and I try my best to deal with it, but I understand how you might not see what I do. My Parents Never Buy Me anything other than the \"Needs\" (Food, Clothing, Shelter) I don't have a Job anymore and I am trying to find one. I was under payed and Had little Liberty at my former job. Getting a Cable might seem simple, but Is it simple for EVERYONE? Some people have difficult Lives. and with the things you two have said, it seems like you two live Very Good Lives and Have Much Freedom And Have Good Jobs. I Have None of the Three... But don't worry... I understand why you don't see how it can possibly be hard for someone... Sorry for not having a better Life.

And No Problem HyperSonic7701.

At some games proof picture taking is pretty tough, example Donkey Kong Country 2 (GBA) Diddy's Dash times. Those are possible proof with proof picture, but it's so much easier and faster take one proof video.

proof video

I tried about 3 years ago prove my record with proof vid and it wasn't allowed, so it's really shame if I don't get any platinum medals from my Diddy's Dash records XD

Great discussion you develop here, I have read every posts and I just want to deliver you some stats of current being of proofs:
33,765 Platinum proven / 42,992 topScores proven / 111,285 proofs / 746,701 scores.

Maybe next time I could take some time to participate I will discuss with you on this topic.

Dark Eon Master :

I don't have a Job anymore and I am trying to find one.

That does suck. I've spent the majority of the last 18 months unemployed and I know how difficult it can be to get another

and with the things you two have said, it seems like you two live Very Good Lives

Nope

and Have Much Freedom

Nope

And Have Good Jobs.

Nope

I Have None of the Three... But don't worry... I understand why you don't see how it can possibly be hard for someone... Sorry for not having a better Life.

Funnily enough, I proved most of my scores when I was unemployed and struggling. You said it upset you that we judged quickly, but you just did the same thing. But I would like to add that I refuse to get into the whole \"your life is better\" discussion and that I didn't appreciate the sarcasm in your post

i agree the ideas and \"problems\" of some ppl here, but the other fact is: yes we have the option to ask for a proof, but why there are some proof askings get \"deleted\" because you get just sayed: \"yo this guy is a skilled gamer, hes a good Gamer on a other highscore site\" bla bla bla

That is 1 of the big problems i have. And with the max of 3 proof questions per day makes you a little angry.

I know 1 score here i must proove it DIRECT before i can send a proof. This was a lv of Super Mario 64. I have over 2000 scores prooved at this time but i cant w8 1 day before i get asked for a proof...

And then if you ask for a proof of a other gamer, you get the answer like: \"no no dont ask for a proof of this gamer\"... Im not happy with this. Thats why i want a system for it. And yes, maybe ppl will leave the site because of this, but you cant say the scores are right or wrong. Sure i dont know if they ever get a max score in a old NES Game, but you cant say too that he reached the score. I have no fun trying to beat or set the same score on a Game if the Top gamer dont proof or dont must proof it.

Ask Zimer about the 999.999 score of First Samurai for the SNES. Maybe he trust me that i did the same score like him, but im sure hes feeling better if he can see a proof picture like he post too.

And btw: you have 2 weeks to proof a score if you asked for it, sometimes longer if the score are \"forgotten\" to check.

@Emperor91: sure its good to make video proofs too like your video, but where you cant use it for a proof? Ok here we have atm the problem that we cant set a video direct to the score/time to see it but i dont think someone here will say: this is not a proof. But 1 thing would be good too: Can you proof some more of your scores or you dont like the idea that all ppl can see your score is 100% true? I mean you have arround 160 proofs of nearly 2900 scores and the most are sure you are a good speedrunner in some games. But what you do if you get asked for a proof that dont saved ingame? You must make the score/time again right? i think this is more work as simple make a picture after you reached it.

My last 11 scores what i must proof are the Donkey Kong(GB) scores (most 2-4 places) and why you think i dont proof that already? Yes i dont made a pictures of this none 1st place scores. If someone come and ask, i must make it again to have a picture

Undead :

but why there are some proof askings get \"deleted\" because you get just sayed: \"yo this guy is a skilled gamer, hes a good Gamer on a other highscore site\" bla bla bla

You are right here. However, it is usually the people that are considered good on another site, etc. that are able to prove their records if asked as well, or have had a situation where proof was asked and this person supplied it. There are people that are considered \"trusted\", and perhaps that's not the greatest thing because people can abuse said trust.

Undead :

That is 1 of the big problems i have. And with the max of 3 proof questions per day makes you a little angry.

Only 3? I'd like to see this bumped up to 5 at the very least. CS allows 10 per day >_>

Undead :

And then if you ask for a proof of a other gamer, you get the answer like: \"no no dont ask for a proof of this gamer\"... Im not happy with this. Thats why i want a system for it. And yes, maybe ppl will leave the site because of this, but you cant say the scores are right or wrong. Sure i dont know if they ever get a max score in a old NES Game, but you cant say too that he reached the score. I have no fun trying to beat or set the same score on a Game if the Top gamer dont proof or dont must proof it.

Well, that's a result of a perhaps favored system? I am not saying the current system is perfect at all, it has its own problems. But can you say that's anyone's fault? I mean, humans try, but can never really be unbiased. And yes, it is certainly true that you don't know whether any given person has actually achieved a record or not if it hasn't been proven.

Undead :

And btw: you have 2 weeks to proof a score if you asked for it, sometimes longer if the score are \"forgotten\" to check.

Naturally, I am aware of this, I have reported a few records.

Undead :

My last 11 scores what i must proof are the Donkey Kong(GB) scores (most 2-4 places) and why you think i dont proof that already? Yes i dont made a pictures of this none 1st place scores. If someone come and ask, i must make it again to have a picture

This is the kind of problem I was describing in my last post. Sure, all first places will be proven, but then people won't treat their other records the same way. It just moves the problem from not having enough proofs to be sure of things to having confidence in 1st places, but not in the rest of the records on the site. It will just shift the problem rather than completely solve it, which only proving all records can do.

viviengaetan :

I just want to deliver you some stats of current being of proofs:
33,765 Platinum proven / 42,992 topScores proven / 111,285 proofs / 746,701 scores.

Do you happen to know how many charts (only with posts, preferably) that are on the site at this moment? Perhaps this can be put into perspective based on the current system.

I will say that it is quite fortunate we have many people willing to prove many of their stats, it's definitely a wonderful thing.

I also want to bring to the table the possibility of having to take video proof for a record. Naturally, not all these charts on the site can be proven by a picture. Some will have to require video (or at least scrolling video proof in order to associate the level with the record). I am also sure some people did not record runs of said games that just happen to be first place. It is all very similar to the fact that we would like all of the WRs to be recorded or proven, but sometimes, people achieve a record that happens to be first and may never do it again, which unfortunately wasn't recorded. It does happen, this has happened to me (sort of - usually I can still prove it via picture). True, there may not be too many examples of this, but it is still part of the ramifications of implementing a more forced proof system.

Just a very rapid look to this topic: VGR allows 5 proof requests per day, and if more are needed, someone can PM pm with the links and the reasons, I'll give my requests.

thelegendarypsr :

Funnily enough, I proved most of my scores when I was unemployed and struggling. You said it upset you that we judged quickly, but you just did the same thing. But I would like to add that I refuse to get into the whole \"your life is better\" discussion and that I didn't appreciate the sarcasm in your post

Sorry for that. I guess I did Judge, but only because I felt that you did it beforehand. It was my wrong. And Sorry for the Sarcasm. I don't usually do that, it isn't my thing. Also, Thanks for trying not start a discussion about this. Like I said before, I have a lot that stresses me out, so it helps when others don't continue what I start. Again, I am sorry for that.

Continuing with the Topic, I would like to add something to what HyperSonic7701 has said. If all 1st Place Platinums are Required to be Proven, then The \"Cheaters\" could just post 2nd Place Scores just to avoid the Requirement to prove the record. They Would still get many points for it. So HyperSonic7701 is right when he says that the Problem would only be Shifted.
@ Undead, Now if all you want is to make Sure No cheaters get a Platinum, then I understand why you would be for this. This would be a good Idea if your only intention is to stop Cheaters from getting a Platinum that a Real Player deserves.

We have to take all of this talking in consideration between all admins before just saying \"ok, it will be implemented\"...
IMO, this is not a good idea to link platinium with proof because a platinium is just the difference between 1st tied and 1st not-tied ; no matters if it's proven or not.

I think we need to find a way to give bonuses to members that prove their gold/platinium, taking cheating people in consideration.

But I'm very sure that proving a 1st place, platinium or not, must not affect generals rankings.

The VGR points bonus is a good way to get people to proove, even more when the gift system (if it's still coming) arrives.
The top 100 proof is another good way to get people to prooves.
I'd see a top 100 proof by team, this won't scare any player but helping the team will make them prooves more.

I think that the 2 rankings made by yicestmoi and myself are already a kind of bonus for some good players who already prooved a lot of their scores.
They also contains a system of calculation depending on the Top Proofs ranking, and its rate.

Top Proofs should just be an informative ranking for me and not be integrated in the Top Points of VGR.
Because lot of old players who are less active now just prooved few scores to show that they possess the game, that they can do one big score or whatever...
Because new members can be afraid of a kind of obligation to proove, even if this is legit and enhance the global quality of the VGR website.
And also because it represents a way of showing the honesty and integrity of the player, and not his level or quality in one record.

So please don't mix Points and Proofs.  

Points and proofs will nerver be mixed

zephyraz :

So please don't mix Points and Proofs.

magicbart :

Points and proofs will nerver be mixed

The deal is not about Points but Medals, it's totally different as you can see there are 2 charts.